採訪 柯汝同 / 記錄整理 陳怡樺

初春的午后，帶著些許的興奮與緊張來到了林勤霖在維多利亞的工作室，為此花了不少的功夫才說服了他。對這樣一個「孤僻」的藝術家實在讓我們這些採訪人員又愛又恨。記得幾年前在台灣時，我的主管授意我去採訪他，結果卻被他一句：「把機會讓給別人」輕鬆的給推掉了，之後我才知道他和媒體幾近絕緣，他寧願花很多時間為你煮咖啡，談音樂甚至陪你在他畫室附近遊山玩水﹝那裡真是有山有水，昰北台灣一個很美的地方﹞就是不談他的作品。據說他的恐懼是來自對傳播媒體誇大渲染的不信任以及不想太早被「虛名」所害有以致之。
這一次，我可是有備而來，只是一股蓄勢待發窮追究底的氣氛在他的閒逸之中消散無踪，話題似乎無可避免的從他書房中面窗的那一件作品談起。

柯問：你的畫作裡的黑色份量很重，昰否反映了你的個性？
林答：我知道你是把黑色與悲觀、孤寂、靜默等相聯結，其實黑色昰很甜美的顏色，也是很有親和力的顏色，它幾乎能與所有的顏色搭配，關於個性或許你不好意思說，還是我來自剖好了，其實我不願意與外界，特別是媒體有太多的接觸昰因為我怕被名利所累，適度的名利固然能使藝術家取得創作的基本所需，但是誰也不能拿捏的恰好，往往名利就成了藝術生命的最大殺手，這昰一個人性的問題，因此古今中外少有例外。

柯問：近年來在台灣，你的成績已漸受肯定，這對你會造成負面的影響嗎？
林答：其實根本算不上什麼成績，或許只是因為我一直很努力，經過那麼多年，總有一些人認識我和我的作品，特別是圈內的學者和藝術家，很有趣的是我的作品收藏者很多是畫家，相對於社會大眾而言我是沒沒無聞的，我很喜歡這種型態—作品重於清談，內行人的肯定使我更加敬謹，群眾的漠視使我得以免除虛無的驕傲。

柯問：這些作品真引人入勝，是否你的不張揚使你選擇抽象作為你的表達形式？
林答：在我這一代，若以現實來看，畫抽象是最吃力不討好的，在六零年代末期」抽象這個流派在美術史上已成過去，對一般大眾而言它又太難解，但這些都不是我考慮的重點，從事藝術工作必須先對自己忠實，一個人的畫風也不必然要與美術史合軌，更何況潮流的底層深處仍有大量可供耕耘的空間，重要的昰抽象合了我的個性，它和音樂、文學有許多契合之處。雖然現代主義的葛林堡(Clement Greenberg)有所謂的自治(Autonomy)主張，但我認為他的看法只是一種階段性的權宜，雖然造就了那個時代許多偉大的藝術，但絕不是一個任何時空都能適用的準則，藝術應該有它的整全性格(wholeness)，營養均衡才能開花結果。

柯問：許多人說你的作品充滿了音樂性，你自己覺得呢？
林答：我並非刻意去營造所謂的音樂性，作畫時聽音樂也不是想藉此將音符轉化成造型或色彩。有音樂性可能是很自然的事，我那麼喜歡音樂或許是一種誠於中而形於外吧！音樂的空間感對造型藝術是有很多啟發的！

柯問：文學也是你的至愛，你也經常寫作，是嗎？
林答：說寫作太沉重了，有了基本的文字表達技巧之後，大部份思路清晰的人就可以寫論文，大部分感情豐富的人就可以寫散文或詩，表達是人基本的需要與權利，不過要成為作家殊非易事，我寫作純粹是為了自娛與備忘，很少發表。有一次是為了在台北市立美術館的裝置展而寫了一首敘事詩「忘歸魚的死與生」作為展覽的一部分，當時印了幾千本在現場供參觀者取閱，因此有些人看過它。

柯問：這篇東西後來又衍生出另一件作品，是嗎？
林答：是的，那是在預期之外，在展覽之後隔了一段很長的時間，旅德編舞家余能盛看到了故事很受感動，那一年是九六年，當時他在台灣指導台北室內芭蕾，他利用午休時間來到山上和我談了一個多小時，不久他把「忘歸魚的死與生」編成四幕芭蕾舞劇在台北國家劇院實驗劇場演了一週，我也幫忙做了佈景，這種合作很有意思，當年畢卡索也曾為戴吉列夫作過佈景設計。李泰祥原本打算為這舞劇配樂，後來因健康因素而沒能完成，後來在九八年余能盛將這舞碼帶到他任藝術總監的德國哥堡劇院演出。

柯問：你後來又寫了「失音鳥」。你把這兩篇作品定義為「創造性神話」。能否作一些解釋？
林答：我們都把神話想成遠古的事，其實神話應該是一種文學體裁，它可以表意明志，因此每一個時代都應該有它的神話。

柯問：你強調「創造性」是何所指？
林答：「創造性」其實就是一種虛構，一種無中生有，故事中的主角原本並不存在，此外，我為了增加其「真實性」還特別把許多中國既有的神話穿插進去，使結構編織得更逼真生動。

柯問：願不願意談談這兩個故事？
林答：談太多可能離題，我只能提示一下：忘歸魚是象徵每個時代的精英為人類的救贖做努力，它的傳承是經由自然的生殖；而失音鳥是專指藝術工作者，它的傳承是靠典範的追尋。故事內容可以從我的網站上看到。

柯問：回頭來談你的畫，就如你所說的，抽象對一般大眾過於難解，能否請你就了解抽象作一些引導？
林答：抽象與具象的語言有著根本的差異，具象是藉由透視法將三度空間的物體用二度空間的畫面來呈現，畫作與實體之間有相似或神似之處，但它永遠不可能達到真實，我們常用這種語言去瞭解、欣賞與評鑑抽象畫，因而習於在作品中去尋找自然形象。但抽象畫並沒有意圖去再現自然，如抽象畫的先驅者康汀斯基(W.Kandinsky)所下的定義：它所描繪的對象與自然界可供辨認的形象無關。既然如此，從抽象中去找東西則無異於緣木求魚，也就難怪有許多人著急的破口大罵了。

柯問：那麼抽象畫到底畫什麼呢？
林答：在說明之前我們必須先來介紹一點美術史，抽象畫派的出現有其軌跡可循。具象畫發展到印象派之後，畫家因光學的啟發而確立了所描繪的對象是「光」而不是「物體本身」的觀念，這是脫離描繪物體的第一步。接著野獸派把物體由自然的色彩中解放出來，立體派又把物體由自然的造形中解放出來，最後再加上象徵主義(Symbolism)的精神洗禮，抽象主義就呼之欲出了。

柯問：可是有些抽象畫還是隱藏著一些自然的形象，這又作何解釋呢？
林答：抽象畫根據蒙德利安(P.Mondrian)的定義可分為兩種：抽離(Abstraction)與創造(Creation) 。最早的抽象畫是由抽離著手，這種抽象是由畫家依其主觀「去蕪存菁」，康汀斯基如此。蒙德利安的演化也是依樹林的形象簡化成弧度不大的弧線而進入方格與原色的純抽象。包括馬勒維奇(K.Malevish)的絕對主義(Suprematist)也是由立體派發展出來的，但這種「創造」一旦由這些先驅者開拓出來之後就已卓然獨立。後繼者大可不必再依賴抽離的過程而直接進入「創造」的領域。後來的抽象表現主義(Abstract Expressionism)和「繪畫性抽象以後的抽象」(Post-Painterly Abstraction)的大部份畫家都是循第二種方式來創作的。

柯問：繪畫離開了自然，它又有什麼價值呢？
林答：撇開精神性的豐富不去談它，因為它很難界定。就比較實際而明顯的「功能」來說，它的影響是深遠的。我們剛才說過具象是以二度空間再現三度空間，因此它永遠只是一個幻象。繪畫有它基本原素(點、線、面及色彩)，抽象畫家們都堅持它們是可以獨立存在的，就像音樂不必摹倣自然的聲響，就連標題音樂也不必。脫離自然形象完全無損藝術的價值。抽象使造型發達，德國的包浩斯(Bauhaus)對近代設計上的貢獻早有歷史的公評，而引導這個學校教學方向的正是一群抽象畫家，康汀斯基就是其中之一。藝術到了這個階段就第二自然而言，它從對器物的描繪進而影響器物的製作，其功能上的價值是肯定的。

柯問：身為一個東方人用西方的觀念和媒材從事創作，你是否在思想上有跨越鴻溝上的困難？而你又如何對待這兩種文化呢？
林答：抽象的觀念在中國很早就有，只是與這個西方的風潮有某些不同，雖然他們有幾位畫家用了中國的書法，但基本上我們並沒有影響到這個潮流。既使如此，也不能代表我們的文化沒有著力點，依我個人的看法，我覺得以中國的內涵在這個架構中仍可以游刃有餘。

柯問：你在八七年後的十二年間，作品都呈現對稱的構成，為什麼呢？
林答：這得由我早期的摸索談起，大約在七六年前後，我常常為了不能跳脫前人的巢臼而喪氣不已，我想如果藝術是誠於中而形於外的東西，那麼每個人的內心都大不相同，為什麼偏偏畫出來的東西都有某種程度的相似呢？後來經過八三年對自動性技巧的體悟，我發現這種雷同大部份來自「眼-心-手」的連串執著。為了去除這種「執」，自動性技法是一種置於死地而後生的方法。這個時期我常在黑暗中作畫，只是到了八七年之後的環境已不許可我這樣做，因此為了達到「去執而讓內涵自然流露」我採用了最不需要「營設」的對稱構圖，幾年後我曾試圖要打破對稱，但都因為不對稱所帶來的不安定感而無法成功。有一個朋友提醒我這可能和我練氣有關，因為氣的運行是對稱的。我無法確定是否真是如此。

柯問：在你的「凝視生命」系列中，為什麼對稱就不再出現了呢？
林答：我想可能是實際的需要吧！為了配合我那首詩的內容，這一系列的構圖多半是寫景。

柯問：「凝視生命」系列對你有什麼特別的意義嗎？
林答：它應該是我成長中的一個里程碑，但它也延續了我先前「時光」系列對時間的關懷，你也可以看出我由悲觀而樂觀，因生活的淬煉而怡然面對生命的過程。看那首詩是如何結語的：
了悟晦昧的必然於心靈的淬煉之后 於是，
喜是生命 悲也是生命
靜對入滅的必然於肉身的衰頹之后 於是，
生是生命 死也是生命
這種境界，除了靠信仰是無法達成的。

柯問：你是基督徒？
林答：是的，我們不是靠修練而是靠救贖。

柯問：可否談談你未來的創作計劃？
林答：如果上帝給我時間，我會在這裡多作一些大型的作品。

柯問：是市場導向嗎？
林答：恰恰相反，我從來不為市場的「需要」而創作。

柯問：你創作依賴「靈感」嗎？你相信「天賦」嗎？
林答：我相信有靈感，但靈感不是在等待中可以得到的，我的經驗是在工作中求靈感。至於天賦，我想我的定義可能與你的不同，我認為天賦不是色感、音感一類的東西，因為這部份還是可以從學習中學得，既然可以在學習中得到就不算是天賦，天賦應該是一種與生俱來的性情，像堅忍、恬淡、愛心等等才是。

柯問：過去你的活動都集中在台灣與歐洲，這是北美洲的第一次個展，你有何感想？
林答：很高興有這個機會，也會更加努力的工作來呈現更具有中國內涵的作品。

Interview with Lin Chin-Lin
Interviewer: Tom Curry
Recorder: Chen Yi-Hwa

Nearly 10 years ago the Editor in Chief at Verve urged me to seek an interview with the abstract painter, Oliver Lin, who was already well known in Taiwan, at least in artistic circles. Despite a strong strategic introduction provided by my boss, Mr. Lin politely declined. He never gave interviews, he told me, but he did invite me for a cup of coffee at his atelier. We met there in a mountain village high above Taiwan’s rugged Pacific coast, and we talked about music, nature, religion, about art in general, but not about his art. After years of similar encounters we finally had the conversation that follows here. It took place after we had independently moved to Canada. We sat in his Victoria study with the recorder going and began talking about one of his paintings that hung there on the wall.

Curry: The color black seems to be the starting point for this painting; did black in any way reflect your mood or personality during that period [the late 90s]?
LIN: I know in general the color black reflects pessimism, loneliness, and stillness. But to me it is a very sweet color with strong affinities that easily match almost any other color. As to your implied question about my reclusiveness throughout the 80s and 90s, I resisted media attention because such reports so easily generate false impressions, false reputations, and false fame. I perceived fame as a powerfully destructive force threatening my artistic career, a force in direct conflict with my creativity. Certainly, to some extent an artist must embrace marketing, if only to provide basic necessities for his or her work, but fame also endangers the artist.
Curry: In recent years, your work has gained wide recognition in Taiwan. Has this reputation in any way inhibited your current work?
LIN: As a matter of fact, I have hardly noticed the change to which you refer. Work has occupied all my attention for many years, and I continue to focus exclusively on my work. A few people have discovered my paintings, mostly scholars and painters, more recently some critics. Indeed, so far my work is mostly collected by artists. Perhaps you will understand that I am of that tradition where merit derives from deeds not from words. I like very much to live and work in such a style: valuable encouragement from connoisseurs keeps me working diligently and indifference of the masses keeps me away from arrogance.

Curry: Yes, it is fascinating, but tell me, is this reluctance to self-promote in some way connected to your choice of abstraction as a primary mode of expression?
LIN: During the 1960s, when I was growing up, the public had already written off abstraction as an obsolete trend. Nevertheless, I was so attracted to abstraction that I really had no choice but to swim across the current of public taste. Because I trust under the depth of the current there has plenteousness for someone to dig. I knew what my work would be, and anyone fortunate enough to receive a vocation as I did must develop it, even though it grows contrary to the fluctuations of art history. I began to see wonderful abstractions embedded in music, embedded in literature, embedded in my psyche and personality. The modernist critic, Clement Greenberg, asserted that art is autonomous, conducted by a subjective but rational individual, and certainly his explanation helped bolster many great art works for a time. I now see the limitations of such principles, but I still believe that sincere artistic expression eventually reflects the wholeness, should it be allowed to blossom and bear fruit.

Curry: Critics have noted that your work contains strong elements of music, how do you feel about that analogy?
LIN: I do not structure my work to create musical effects. However, the love of music doesn’t follow that I intend to transfer the tune into space. So it is fair to say that the musical sense I cultivate spontaneously becomes part of my working process. And I see the “space” of music is really enlightening in terms of visual arts.

Curry: We know also that you are devoted to literature; do you find time to write?
LIN: Frankly speaking, I am not good writer. I suppose if people possess some skill with words when they can think clearly, they write essays of their own; when they have strong emotions, they find an outlet in prose or poetry. However, a writer requires disciplined focus, but my focus is usually elsewhere. I do write from time to time, but usually for the benefit of my other art. My writing has seldom been published. Once while working out an exhibition in Taipei Fine Art Museum I wrote a descriptive poem entitled “The Tragedy of Peon Fish.” The poem was part of that exhibition, published in the booklets distributed during the exhibition, so a few people read it in the context of that show.

Curry: As I recall, “The Tragedy of Peon Fish” later evolved into other projects.
LIN: Yes, but I did not anticipate those developments. Quite a long time after the exhibition, Yu, Neng-Sheng, a German trained choreographer visited my studio for a short time to discuss about the possibility of making a dance drama out of my story. Finally in1997, he organized a week of performances at the Taipei National Theater, and for that time we enjoyed a very interesting cooperation: I participated in the set design and provided paintings and sculptures as backdrops for the dances. This sort of activity for an artist has plenty of precedents. Picasso designed sets and provided background scenes for Valery Gergiev. In a later time, Li Tai-Xian planned to compose live music with it, but poor health prevented him from fulfilling his wish. Later in 1998, Yu, Neng-Sheng performed the drama again with his fellow dancers of Landestheater, Coburg in Germany.

Curry: I have also read and enjoyed your short story, “The Forsaken Fowl. “ You classify both these descriptive works as “creative myths.” Can you elaborate on this expression?
LIN: We tend to think of myths as events that happened in ancient times, but I think of myths as literature to express one’s will and later evolved into social morals. Each era, each individual creates myths.

Curry: How do you define “creative” in your myth?
LIN: Creative myths come from nowhere. The leading characters do not exist. However, to build an impression of authenticity and to strengthen the narrative structure, I orchestrated my plot with some elements from the mythology of ancient China.

Curry: Can you tell just a little more about the two stories?
LIN: Just two brief points will be emphasized today to avoid a sidetrack: The story of Peon Fish mirrors the effort of idealists toward salvation and they carry on their life by propagation; while The Forsaken Fowl represents artists and they are generated by means of model imitation. As you know, both these stories are on my website.

Curry: Most people, especially at first, find abstract painting difficult to understand. Can you give us some help, some kind of entry-point to your abstractions?
LIN: There are fundamental differences between the language of abstractionism and realism. The latter depicts three dimensional objects in two dimensions so that the objects depicted are recognizably similar, though of course never exactly the same. Oftentimes we use the language of realism to observe, to admire, and to evaluate natural forms in art works. In contrast, as W. Kandinsky asserted: abstraction was not based the representational properties of color and form found in nature. This lack of reference to natural form puzzles many viewers. They wish to relate abstraction to something, but abstraction resists such treatment.

Curry: Then can you describe in some way the content of an abstract painting?
LIN: Before I elaborate on your question further, I would first like to give a brief art history to enable you to trace back. Been influenced by optics science the Impressionists aimed to represent light rather than the object itself. This first step marks the beginning of the path to abstraction. When Cubism and Fauvism emerged, artists broadened their range to more than natural forms and colors. However, with the advent of Symbolism to broaden the spiritual scope, abstract painting truly arrived.

Curry: Many viewers notice that abstract paintings seem sometimes to conceal natural forms. How do you account for such responses?
LIN: Piet Mondrian defined Abstract painting into two categories namely
“Abstraction” and “Creation.” The early abstract painting was dominated by “Astraction” alone. Artists leading by Kandinsky abstracted the desired natural forms. Mondrian also started his evolution from “Abstraction.” His various studies of trees still contain a measure of representation. As the years progressed and based on “Creation”, the short curves changed into a grid of vertical and horizontal black lines and the three primary colors. Even Kasimir Malevish, the Suprematist, developed from Cubism like Mondrian. But the path from “Abstraction” to “Creation” is not necessary for all followers. For once “Creation” was set in place by the forerunners, one can go directly to this independent realm as the Abstract Expressionists and Post-Painterly Abstraction artists did.

Curry: If painting departs from the natural, then what values does it retain?
LIN: Let’s not talk about spiritual value. Spiritual value is too difficult and personal. But the functional value of Abstraction is obvious. Earlier I mentioned how representation simulates three dimensional objects in two dimensions. Abstract painters insist that dot, line, plane and color can be independent elements from nature, just as music does not have to resemble sounds that occur in nature even the program music. Diverging from natural objects in no way degrades the artistic act. The contributions of Bauhaus school have already recognized by the world. Many distinguished abstract artists made contribution to Bauhaus and W. Kandinsky was among them. At this stage, art is no longer a business to copy the nature or artificial objects. On the contrary, art becomes inspirational source of craft.

Curry: As a person born in the East who incorporates western ideas and western media for creative activity, do you have any difficulty crossing the gulfs of thought that separate these two great cultural traditions?
LIN: The roots of abstraction run deep in ancient China, though of course there are some differences between Western and Eastern abstraction. We didn’t influence the West even several abstract artists took advantage of our calligraphy to enrich their works. To say we exerted no influence over modern trend doesn’t follow that our culture is too faint to build. In my personal opinion, Chinese culture can be well developed in the frame of human culture.

Curry: During the 12-year period from 1987 to 1989, all your paintings employ symmetrical forms. Why is that?
LIN: In my earlier exploratory years, around 1976, I was often puzzled: Why could I not develop my own style. I observed that somehow my work always seemed to me derived from some prior artist. I was wondering if art comes from one’s spiritual inner why many art works show outer sameness. I struggled with reluctance until 1983 when I perceived the true essence of “Automatism” and I realized that my problem came from a persistent habit of the “Eye-Heart-Hand” chain reaction. In my case, Automatism is a fatal way to free myself from this impediment. So, for a long period, I often worked in darkness to avoid the said persistence. In 1987, the circumstances not allow me to do the same so I began using a random and symmetrical shaping to enable my spiritual inner to flow out naturally. Long time after this period I tried several times to break away from symmetry, but whenever I did, I felt insecure with the lack of balance in the painting. A friend suggested that this dependence on symmetry reflected my breathing exercises because air flow is always symmetrical. However, I cannot be sure and it left unproven till now.

Curry: Later though, in your series of paintings you called, “Gaze into Life”, the symmetrical shapes disappeared, why is that?
LIN: I think perhaps this series simply did not require symmetry for most of the paintings depicted contents of the poem.

Curry: Does this series have any special meaning to you?
LIN: This series was a milestone in my growth, as well as an extension of my concern for time in my earlier series. You can probably observe my attitude shifting from pessimism toward optimism marked by extended openness and a composed attitude toward life. The last several stanzas of the poem reads ,

Through the spiritual trail on and on,
terminal darkness is appointed that I know
Now I could smile and say:
Life plays the game with loss and gain

Through freshly downhill all the way
final expiration is fated that I see
Now I could grin and shout:
Life writes songs with tune and rest.

I reached this state through strong belief in God himself.

Curry: Are you a Christian?
LIN: Yes, but we depend on redemption rather than penance.

Curry: Can you talk about what directions your work might take in the future?
LIN: If god gives me more time, I would like to do projects that are larger in scale.

Curry: You do this out of a market-oriented purpose?
LIN: No, I just choose the exact opposite. I never create for the market, and as you can see, my work is hardly fashionable.

Curry: Are your creations mostly based on some sort of “inspiration”? Or do you believe in “talent”?
LIN: I believe in creative inspiration, but I also believe that inspiration can only be attracted through activity. Therefore I seek inspiration through hard work. As to talent, my definition may be a little different from many others. I believe talent is not a matter of sensitivity to color or sound; these skills we gain through study. So we might say, talent is what we cannot learn. Talent should be something we have from birth, something like predisposed perseverance, innate peacefulness, or spontaneous love.

Curry : In your past you have been active in Taiwan and in Europe. This exhibition is your first solo exhibition in North America. How does it feel?
LIN: I am very glad to have this opportunity to share my work with the public. I will try to present more works with Chinese culture in the future.